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	<title>Comments on: Can OnLive work, technically? If so, how?</title>
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	<link>http://t-machine.org/index.php/2009/03/29/can-onlive-work-technically-if-so-how/</link>
	<description>Internet Gaming, Computer Games, Technology, MMO, and Web 2.0</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 16:26:58 +0100</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: What Cloud Computing Means to Game Design &#124; Game Industry News, Interviews and Videos &#124; Game Theory</title>
		<link>http://t-machine.org/index.php/2009/03/29/can-onlive-work-technically-if-so-how/comment-page-1/#comment-6581</link>
		<dc:creator>What Cloud Computing Means to Game Design &#124; Game Industry News, Interviews and Videos &#124; Game Theory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jul 2010 00:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://t-machine.org/?p=499#comment-6581</guid>
		<description>[...] Ahvenlampi argues that, due to network lag, this model could never work; Adam Martin claims that it could work if the servers are located intelligently. Keith Boesky points out that the actual business model is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ahvenlampi argues that, due to network lag, this model could never work; Adam Martin claims that it could work if the servers are located intelligently. Keith Boesky points out that the actual business model is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: DESIGNER NOTES &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Hidden Benefit of OnLive</title>
		<link>http://t-machine.org/index.php/2009/03/29/can-onlive-work-technically-if-so-how/comment-page-1/#comment-2814</link>
		<dc:creator>DESIGNER NOTES &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Hidden Benefit of OnLive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://t-machine.org/?p=499#comment-2814</guid>
		<description>[...] Ahvenlampi argues that, due to network lag, this model could never work; Adam Martin claims that it could work if the servers are located intelligently. Keith Boesky points out that the actual business model is [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ahvenlampi argues that, due to network lag, this model could never work; Adam Martin claims that it could work if the servers are located intelligently. Keith Boesky points out that the actual business model is [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Crystall</title>
		<link>http://t-machine.org/index.php/2009/03/29/can-onlive-work-technically-if-so-how/comment-page-1/#comment-2793</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Crystall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Apr 2009 02:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://t-machine.org/?p=499#comment-2793</guid>
		<description>Actually the sensible thing to do would be to sell the server tech to convention centers and LAN parties and so on. Low latency environments where having a few rackmount servers and a bunch of low-spec PC&#039;s works very well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually the sensible thing to do would be to sell the server tech to convention centers and LAN parties and so on. Low latency environments where having a few rackmount servers and a bunch of low-spec PC&#8217;s works very well.</p>
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		<title>By: Simfoony &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A propósito de OnLive</title>
		<link>http://t-machine.org/index.php/2009/03/29/can-onlive-work-technically-if-so-how/comment-page-1/#comment-2778</link>
		<dc:creator>Simfoony &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A propósito de OnLive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://t-machine.org/?p=499#comment-2778</guid>
		<description>[...] y es fácil de entender. Si no os da miedo el inglés, entonces mejor os leís los articulos de Adam Martin y Jake [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] y es fácil de entender. Si no os da miedo el inglés, entonces mejor os leís los articulos de Adam Martin y Jake [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MutantIndustries</title>
		<link>http://t-machine.org/index.php/2009/03/29/can-onlive-work-technically-if-so-how/comment-page-1/#comment-2766</link>
		<dc:creator>MutantIndustries</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://t-machine.org/?p=499#comment-2766</guid>
		<description>Skövde where I studied, a really small town connected through OpenNet, whose business plan is to build an open fiber net, and now Uppsala with Bredbandsbolaget. Apparently, 19% of all broadband subscribers have fiber in Sweden according to OECD&#039;s report. With a total of 2 933 014 broadband subscribers that’s ~557 272 subscribers with fiber.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Skövde where I studied, a really small town connected through OpenNet, whose business plan is to build an open fiber net, and now Uppsala with Bredbandsbolaget. Apparently, 19% of all broadband subscribers have fiber in Sweden according to OECD&#8217;s report. With a total of 2 933 014 broadband subscribers that’s ~557 272 subscribers with fiber.</p>
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		<title>By: Olivier CARRERE</title>
		<link>http://t-machine.org/index.php/2009/03/29/can-onlive-work-technically-if-so-how/comment-page-1/#comment-2765</link>
		<dc:creator>Olivier CARRERE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://t-machine.org/?p=499#comment-2765</guid>
		<description>Think about the economics behind unrolling big iron almost locally to your players. In order to get a good *and constant* 1.5Mb/s (which they claim is their SD bandwidth) you either need to place the servers at the exchanges, probably VERY uneconomical, or indeed at ISPs. 

So yes you&#039;d need to partner with ISPs, and that might be fine for europe. It might not for the US, which territories are much bigger meaning some subscribers would probably fall out of the &quot;acceptable latency&quot; range.

But most importantly, you have to think about the underlying network telcos use. You&#039;d think that the link between your copper wires and the ISP is a &quot;perfect&quot; 24Mb/s (or 8, 4... or whatever is sold to you) . But in practice, it will not be. For instance, at least in some of the biggest countries in Europe, telcos backbones are built on top of ATM. ATM has serveral adaptation layers, meaning that you can choose different levels of quality and garanties. That&#039;s great because it means that you can &quot;reserve&quot; a 64Kb/s link between 2 hosts in order to perform a glitchless phone communication... But that costs (hence why phone communication is so expensive in comparison typical data comm) as you need to immobilise resources all along the link. So, in order to cut costs, the link that separates you from you ISP in a typical (european, I guess, I don&#039;t know about the US) is implemented using AAL5, which means it&#039;s a best effort protocol, very much like typical IP. 

So, that means in turn that you will indeed experience your X Mb/s to your ISP *most of the time*, but there is *no garanties* you will constantly. If your data rate is not constant for your video game video stream, that means you either have to skip altogether frames, or start buffering, which is no good news either for your response roundtrip.

To come to the conclusion (sorry that was long), this means that in order to support high bandwidth, constant-ish data rate, you need to partner with ISPs *and* someone will have to pay for the low contention ratio on the telco backbone...

I&#039;m not even going into the hardware necessary to run the games. :)
Even though it&#039;s technically possible, my gut feeling is that in practice it&#039;s going to be very expensive... Or very shit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Think about the economics behind unrolling big iron almost locally to your players. In order to get a good *and constant* 1.5Mb/s (which they claim is their SD bandwidth) you either need to place the servers at the exchanges, probably VERY uneconomical, or indeed at ISPs. </p>
<p>So yes you&#8217;d need to partner with ISPs, and that might be fine for europe. It might not for the US, which territories are much bigger meaning some subscribers would probably fall out of the &#8220;acceptable latency&#8221; range.</p>
<p>But most importantly, you have to think about the underlying network telcos use. You&#8217;d think that the link between your copper wires and the ISP is a &#8220;perfect&#8221; 24Mb/s (or 8, 4&#8230; or whatever is sold to you) . But in practice, it will not be. For instance, at least in some of the biggest countries in Europe, telcos backbones are built on top of ATM. ATM has serveral adaptation layers, meaning that you can choose different levels of quality and garanties. That&#8217;s great because it means that you can &#8220;reserve&#8221; a 64Kb/s link between 2 hosts in order to perform a glitchless phone communication&#8230; But that costs (hence why phone communication is so expensive in comparison typical data comm) as you need to immobilise resources all along the link. So, in order to cut costs, the link that separates you from you ISP in a typical (european, I guess, I don&#8217;t know about the US) is implemented using AAL5, which means it&#8217;s a best effort protocol, very much like typical IP. </p>
<p>So, that means in turn that you will indeed experience your X Mb/s to your ISP *most of the time*, but there is *no garanties* you will constantly. If your data rate is not constant for your video game video stream, that means you either have to skip altogether frames, or start buffering, which is no good news either for your response roundtrip.</p>
<p>To come to the conclusion (sorry that was long), this means that in order to support high bandwidth, constant-ish data rate, you need to partner with ISPs *and* someone will have to pay for the low contention ratio on the telco backbone&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not even going into the hardware necessary to run the games. :)<br />
Even though it&#8217;s technically possible, my gut feeling is that in practice it&#8217;s going to be very expensive&#8230; Or very shit.</p>
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		<title>By: adam</title>
		<link>http://t-machine.org/index.php/2009/03/29/can-onlive-work-technically-if-so-how/comment-page-1/#comment-2764</link>
		<dc:creator>adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://t-machine.org/?p=499#comment-2764</guid>
		<description>Which cities?

Akamai just published a review of US and worldwide broadband, and (IIRC) reported a mere 50% or so of US citizens were getting over 5Mbps even in the most connected states.

100Mbps for the last seven years anywhere outside of the new super-cities (most of which are in Asia) is insanely high - I know of cases, but these were tiny European cities that got upgraded at &quot;the right time&quot;, or were all super expensive executive apartments, luxury flats, or rare exceptions that happened to be sited right on an internet peering point. Basically ... far from what any normal people could get. Where was that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which cities?</p>
<p>Akamai just published a review of US and worldwide broadband, and (IIRC) reported a mere 50% or so of US citizens were getting over 5Mbps even in the most connected states.</p>
<p>100Mbps for the last seven years anywhere outside of the new super-cities (most of which are in Asia) is insanely high &#8211; I know of cases, but these were tiny European cities that got upgraded at &#8220;the right time&#8221;, or were all super expensive executive apartments, luxury flats, or rare exceptions that happened to be sited right on an internet peering point. Basically &#8230; far from what any normal people could get. Where was that?</p>
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		<title>By: MutantIndustries</title>
		<link>http://t-machine.org/index.php/2009/03/29/can-onlive-work-technically-if-so-how/comment-page-1/#comment-2763</link>
		<dc:creator>MutantIndustries</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 06:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://t-machine.org/?p=499#comment-2763</guid>
		<description>&quot;The fastest European and US home broadband connections I’ve yet seen peak at 24 Mbps&quot;

That seems odd. My impression was that 100 Mbps fiber right into apartments where not that uncommon. I&#039;ve had that for the last seven years and I&#039;ve moved twice to new cities during that time. I&#039;m typically able to utilize about 60-80% of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The fastest European and US home broadband connections I’ve yet seen peak at 24 Mbps&#8221;</p>
<p>That seems odd. My impression was that 100 Mbps fiber right into apartments where not that uncommon. I&#8217;ve had that for the last seven years and I&#8217;ve moved twice to new cities during that time. I&#8217;m typically able to utilize about 60-80% of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Kriss</title>
		<link>http://t-machine.org/index.php/2009/03/29/can-onlive-work-technically-if-so-how/comment-page-1/#comment-2762</link>
		<dc:creator>Kriss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2009 06:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://t-machine.org/?p=499#comment-2762</guid>
		<description>Pretty much what I thought, ignore the tech and assume it works mostly which isn&#039;t that unreasonable, it will succeed or fail based on relationships with ISPs.

So I suspect it will be a strange local thing, with a very long roll out time. 

What it reminds me of is hearing about (as a kid) this thing called cable TV that was popular in America but not something I had the option of experiencing until many many many years later.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretty much what I thought, ignore the tech and assume it works mostly which isn&#8217;t that unreasonable, it will succeed or fail based on relationships with ISPs.</p>
<p>So I suspect it will be a strange local thing, with a very long roll out time. </p>
<p>What it reminds me of is hearing about (as a kid) this thing called cable TV that was popular in America but not something I had the option of experiencing until many many many years later.</p>
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